Thursday, May 15, 2008

NASTY TORIES STILL MARCHING BACKWARDS, TO A HYMN PLAYING.

While we have mainly been concentrating on the wee world of Scottish politics (dangerous parochialism)
I missed the emergence of the Tory think tank which came up with the following suggested policy.

In Vitro Fertilisation treatment (IVF) should not be made available to Lesbian couples.

Yes folks this the modern Tory Party in 2008, lesbian women cannot be trusted with children, standing four square behind them is the Catholic Church, now there's a shock.
I sometimes despair at these people but we mustn't give up. We must continue the battle for fairness and justice, we must carry on shining the light of decency in the hope that these seriously misguided people will some day see it.

The Tories and religious campaigners regard it as wrong for two women who are committed to each other in a long term loving relationship to have children, I believe that to be wrong, discriminatory and down right un-Christian, not for the first time I find myself asking what the gentle Jesus that I learned about as a child would say to such a couple.
It's a fanciful question I know but, without claiming any religious insight I am utterly convinced he would have said "bless all three of you"

With no disrespect to those who differ, the desire to have children is something that most women would recognise, it can become obsessive in some cases and can ruin lives as a consequence, speaking as a male I regard the birth of my children as the greatest thing that has ever happened to me and I think that to deny that joy to someone because of their sexuality and prejudice of others is unspeakably cruel.

A lesbian couple are planning a 'shared baby', by IVF, one will have her eggs fertilized and the resulting embryo will be implanted into her partner's womb, this means one would be the birth mother and the other the genetic mother.
Is this child wanted ? these women have clearly spent time deciding this and are determined to carry it through, surely this suggests that they are every bit as as suitable as anyone else to be parents. I wish them well.

Former Tory leader Iain Duncan Smith called it a "nail in the coffin" of the traditional family, big on tradition the Tories.
Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor has called for a free vote as he campaigns against this bill. I find it very tempting to cut loose at these people but, I've counted to ten and I accept that they are genuine, at least the Cardinal is. The Tories ? could they be electioneering ?

There are 3 million single parents in Britain but they want to exclude lesbians.
The overwhelming majority of sexual and physical abuse cases happen within families, traditional families.

To suggest that a child with lesbian parents would be denied the influence of an adult male is disingenuous, they would have to go and live in a cave for that to happen, the argument doesn't stand up and the Tories and the Church are clutching at straws.

The argument is simple, I say that children should be raised in a home where there is love and protection and that excludes no one.
I hope the Bill is passed and we take another step away from prejudice and into the light.

38 comments:

Nicola said...

What give us the right to play god?

You need a male and a female to reproduce. It has been ever thus since the dawn of time. The fact that we now have technology to override the natural order of things does not mean we should.

Certain heterosexual couples cannot conceive. I am convinced that when this happens it is nature attempting to prevent something genetically undesirable being passed on. Like Darwin at work. To bypass this and force conception must expose the children to a greater chance of handicaps or abnormalities. I wonder if there have been any studies?

I have always maintained that if my marriage had not produced children I would not go down the IVF route.

The adoption system in this country is sadly lacking parents to take on the available children. If a lesbian couple (or a gay couple or an infertile hetro couple) want a child then their only option should be adoption. Only once all children had been adopted could the couple be allowed IVF.

And for the record I have no strong opinions on whether homosexuals should be allowed to adopt. Their individual suitability as parents should be the deciding factor - not identity politics.

Anonymous said...

I'm a pretty secular, moderate Christian - i.e. not a religious fanatic - and I don't think it's a good idea for children to be raised in artificial, two-parent families.

A child needs a mum and a dad - one of each. The destruction of Scottish society has been brought about in a large part because we've lost sight of that basic fact, amongst many others. People like you have a real case to answer to.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(ShrekBall) 13:53
Calling someone an ‘uncle Tom’ is an insult but not a racial insult, you clearly don’t understand the term.

Spelling problem or not you are sailing close to the wind.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Nicola) 13:49

“the natural order of things” What you mean is the natural order of things as decided by you.

I support your desire to improve adoption but not at the cost you describe.

The rest of your post is a chilling superstitious rant and deeply un-Christian.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 17:49

A Lesbian or Homosexual marriage is artificial only to the knuckle dragging bigot.

“A child needs a mum and a dad - one of each. The destruction of Scottish society has been brought about in a large part because we've lost sight of that basic fact”

Are you wee ‘holy’ Souter by any chance ?

Macnasty said...

Kelly @ 6.12

Kelly,'the natural order of things' was not decided by Nicola -the scriptures have something similar to say about it.

Your support for the gay community also sits strangely with your Fidel worship.

Did Castro get it wrong on this one? Was he a 'knuckle dragging bigot?

Macnasty said...

Terry me old fruit, a marriage needs a MAN and a WOMAN. Twas ever thus and attempts to re-write the script by axe-to-grind misfits and professional jumpers-on-of-bandwagons like you, you numpty, aren't going to change things

Hark to the will of your people, O Tribune of the Left

ShrekBall said...

Wrong thread again Terry but lets roll with it.

Uncle Tom IS a racial insult as it is an insult with racial undertones. The fact you claim to be against racism but feel that you can make such remarks is terrible and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Marcia said...

I feel sorry for any child who only has their parents to rely on! I had a massive extended family plus legions of family friends always called aunties and uncles.

My dad died when I was three so I don't really remember him. My mum had to go out to full time work and I spent most of my time with my grannies. In fact most of my childhood was spent around women. I can't say I've had any problems caused by growing up with no real male influence. I'm married with two sons and we all get on fine. Yes it would have been great if my father hadn't died so young but we managed fine because I was surrounded by people who loved me and did their best for me. Anyone gay, straight or bi who can provide an environment like that for a child is a good parent. I would like to see more people adopt and give children in care a fighting chance but sadly it's easier to get IVF than to adopt.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Macnasty) 15/05/08

“the scriptures have something similar to say about it”

Adam n Eve etc.
My favourite is turning water into wine now that’s a good trick.

Go and check up on Castro before writing such nonsense.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Macnasty) 15/05/08

Same sex marriages are OK by me and the law.

Crawl back into your cave.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(ShrekBall) 15/05/08

Uncle Tom is not a racist insult. Once again you are either stupid or lying.

Chris Andrews said...

Terry,

Are the Conservative Front Bench tabling an amendment denying IVF to lesbian couples? No, they are not.

It is to the credit of the Conservatives that they are not pandering to the views of the illiberal right-wing. As the socialists are to New Labour, the Telegraph lobby are an irrelevance to David Cameron.

Terry, it's all right, Thatcher's gone and she's not coming back. So why not give credit where it's due, rather than use, again, a serious issue as an opportunity to wheel out the 'Tory=Evil' mantra?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Chris Andrews) 09:41

Thatcherism is alive and well in the Conservative Party.

You seem to be in denial and you are an apologist for these bigots.

Anonymous said...

"Are you wee holy (sic) Souter by any chance?"

Ha ha no - sadly I do not have anything like Brian Souter's millions.

Chris Andrews said...

Terry,

Thanks for the reply.

Again, and I quote from my earlier post, "It is to the credit of the Conservatives that they are not pandering to the views of the illiberal right-wing"

Will you withdraw the insult that I am 'an apologist for bigots' please.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Chris Andrews) 11:15

Again, and I quote from my earlier post, "It is to the credit of the Conservatives that they are not pandering to the views of the illiberal right-wing"

The Conservative party is the natural home of the ‘illiberal right wing’ how can you support the Conservative Party and not support their bigotry, Duncan Smith is a recent Tory leader for god’s sake.

There are of course individual members who are not like that and if that’s you then I’m happy to withdraw.

If you are genuine are you trying to convert them ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 11:05
You have some of his unsavoury opinions though.

Anonymous said...

You really are incapable of ever being positive, aren't you?

Allan said...

Comment #2 "A child needs a mum and a dad - one of each. The destruction of Scottish society has been brought about in a large part because we've lost sight of that basic fact"

Er no. The destruction of Scottish society is purly down to feral children having children, and not having the slightest clue on how to bring them up properly, resulting in children being drawn to criminal gangs while their parents get smashed. Paisley is very bad for this, but im sure iner-city Glasgow is much much worse. I blame the parents.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 17:33

I regard this article as positive, perhaps we disagree on what is positive. I’m arguing for fairness and justice, why is that not positive ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Allan) 17:46

There are large swathes of Scotland where everything is fine, “The destruction of Scottish society” is a bit OTT - You mean the poor.

The rich of course don’t always fair better look at William and Harry.

June said...

Same sex marriage and same sex parenting are different things entirely, and same sex biological parenting is impossible.

If the two females go for IVF and between them alone they produce a child then I agree.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(June) 18:15

“Same sex marriage and same sex parenting are different things entirely, and same sex biological parenting is impossible”

As things stand you are right, I don‘t believe I said anything different.

Ben said...

Are you so stupid and so full of bile and vindictiveness over your party, and especially your sect of the Labour party, being a complete an irrelevance that you will take out of context what was actually said?

Look at what was said: "nail in the coffin" of the traditional family

Notice the word traditional cretin? In what way is same sex parenting traditional? If it isn't, how is this anything but commentary on how the traditional couple is becoming less and less important?

You really a cretin, a genuine one, most of the time, but even this piece of hateful bigotry and vindictiveness outshines the usual.

Now do me and other principled and honourable members of the Labour party a favour and go join your pals in the socialist this or that.

BTW: Fidel Castro was a renowned hater and murderer of homosexuals, mainly because he was one and in later years indulged in sex with boys in their teens. He was in denial over it so some had to die. A pity a man like that is your hero.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Ben) 18:25

Ben you have been left in that flower pot too long.

The Labour Party has now and then had it’s troubles but we have never sunk so low as to have the likes of you as a member, you are a liar, and a reactionary right wing bigot.

Anonymous said...

Your reply to June demonstrates that you don't understand the basic principles of how IVF works.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 12:22

In that case neither do the national papers because that’s where I got the story. Perhaps you could let me know where I went wrong.

Are you not missing the point here ? If I knew absolutely nothing about IVF would that mean that Lesbian couples should not have children ?

June said...

Are you not missing the point here ? If I knew absolutely nothing about IVF would that mean that Lesbian couples should not have children ?

Naturally and biologically, yes, it does mean that a lesbian couple cannot have children.

But acknowledging that simple fact would negate your simple minded argument wouldn't it?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(June) 17:39

“would that mean that Lesbian couples should not have children” ?

“it does mean that a lesbian couple cannot have children”

Spot the lie. ‘should not’ and ‘cannot’ what a despicable character you are.

Lesbian couples will have children despite evil bigots like you, time marches on you and your kind are being left behind.

No wonder so many churches are now ‘cash and carries’

Anonymous said...

IVF really is an issue between the individual and the doctor - with ethical oversight provided by the medical profession.

Regulating the sexuality of recipients is, overall, not a good thing and clearly not conducive to wider liberty.

Having said that, it is misleading to say "The Tories" think this. A specific Tory think tank has put this idea forward but it is not Conservative party policy.

We could, with no real effort, find plenty of comparable craziness from Labour think tanks and policy groups (indeed, fyi, many of your fellow party members, like Ruth Kelly to name but one, heartily endorse massively illiberal restrictions on same-sex couples). But the fact that individual party members propose certain ideas does not mean that the party as a whole endorses them.

Until the Tories adopt this as an official policy (which they won't because the Tories are currently far more progressive on matters of sexuality than Labour), you are doing yourself a disservice by pretending that this is their party line.

Fight the Tories on what they do and what they say. Don't demean yourself or your party by misrepresenting matters.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 17/05/08

“it is misleading to say "The Tories" think this. A specific Tory think tank has put this idea forward but it is not Conservative party policy”

A Landsey Tory MP and Health spokesman “is pushing an amendment on IVF resisting the Govt’s attempt to abolish residual discrimination in the law by insisting the treatment should only be offered where a male role model is available” ( Guardian, May 17 2008 Pg. 36 )

That seems unequivocal to me. The Guardian goes on to say, quite rightly that they (the Tories) want to put in place a special hurdle that Lesbians have to jump.

I am not misrepresenting matters. I’m not aware of any amendments by Ruth Kelly or any other Labour members.

LibLab said...

the treatment should only be offered where a male role model is available” ( Guardian, May 17 2008 Pg. 36 )

That seems unequivocal to me.


Then it shows what a bigoted and vindictive little cretin you really are doesn't it? Did he say husband or partner or even father figure? No, they said where a role model is available.

Vindictive little cretin who now uses children to further your bigoted views instead of dead British soldiers, but no doubt you will get back to them soon too.

If lesbians knew they had the likes of you supporting them they would probably decide unilaterally to give up the demands for equality.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(LibLab) 13:07

“Vindictive little cretin who now uses children to further your bigoted views instead of dead British soldiers” When ? Where ?

The Tory amendment discriminates against Lesbians.

LibLab said...

The Tory amendment discriminates against Lesbians.

Been found out and has nothing to say other than to repeat and repeat. I bet you had your fingers in your ears singing lalalalalala while you wrote that.

Sad.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(LibLab) 18/05/08
I wrote that because it’s true.

Tinman said...

"(LibLab) 18/05/08
I wrote that because it’s true."

No, you wrote that because you THOUGHT it to be true.

And anyone who reads your blog never gets those two mixed up.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Tinman) 12:45

“No, you wrote that because you THOUGHT it to be true”

Correct.