Friday, April 18, 2008

THE MILITARY CIRCUS - "WHEN WILL THEY EVER LEARN"

In the aftermath of the battle of Trafalgar, some captured enemy sailors were found to be dressed as circus clowns, this was because a travelling circus had been performing in the Spanish town of Cadiz near the battle site.

These poor guys had gone for a drink after a tough day taming lions, juggling and tumbling, only to wake up aboard a French/Spanish fighting ship heading for big trouble, much worse trouble than taming lions or swallowing swords.

They had of course been 'Press Ganged' something the British Forces also did, the Navy was most famous for it but the Army also used 'impressment' on the lower classes of course, that goes without saying.

These vile practices gradually died out and an equally vile practice came and replaced it 'conscription' this was because people in general are not as patriotic as the military and governments like to tell us, safeguards are needed to make people 'love their country' and, do their patriotic duty.

Nowadays we have propaganda, unemployment and lack of a meaningful future to bolster the numbers in the military, it was ever thus. Unemployment blackspots have always been fertile ground for recruitment, Billy Connolly used to sing a rather poignant song called "Sergeant where's mine" about a recruit who joined the Army to escape unemployment and 'learn to ski and see the world" only to find himself dodging bullets on the streets of Belfast.

It was recently reported that the Army were recruiting in schools and telling lies to the kids about Army life, they only told them the c--p about skiing and seeing the world, they missed the bit about getting shot and killed or maimed.

We are now being told that the Govt. is considering creating a Cadet Corps in schools, this is repugnant.

"this is teaching kids how to kill, it's training for war, youth are educated under the pretext of physical training and it's learning the science of war" (Einstein,Freud,Thomas Mann, H.G. Wells, Bertrand Russell, Jane Adams and the Society of Friends) 01 - 10 - 1930. nothing has changed really.

The marching and drilling and wearing of military uniforms for children is wrong, whether it's Army Cadets learning how to use arms or the Boys Brigade marching with wooden rifles as they used to do.

It's militarism and it's an ugly philosophy which speaks to despair about the future, it's time it was dumped, surely improving educational facilities would be a better use of money than this, we seem to be marching backwards.

The war after the next war will be fought with spears, it's got to stop.

87 comments:

Macnasty said...

The Boys Brigade marching with wooden rifles?

Councillor, I was in the BB circa 1947 and never saw any rifles, wooden or otherwise.

Evidence for your claim please, or a retraction.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Macnasty) 16:36

You are not alone in denying this unsavoury past but a friend of mine recently deceased unfortunately told me that he and his brother drilled in the BB with wooden rifles.

Anyway what do you think the BB is. A sewing bee, paramilitary uniforms, all that saluting and marching and drilling, it’s a militaristic organisation isn’t it ?

Macnasty said...

Kelly @ 4.46

Not really evidence is it Terry, more third party hearsay.

Maybe you could get your late friends brother to confirm that it happened, ideally with photograph and troop details.

Failing that, a retraction, please.

Macnasty said...

Councillor,
'The BB is militaristic.'

In your Huba Huba post, you're waving the banner for Scout groups to be represented on Area Assemblies.

If the BB is a militaristic organisation, then what in Heaven's name are the Scouts, you discriminatory little rascal?

Anonymous said...

but the Army also used 'impressment' on the lower classes of course, that goes without saying.

No they didn't, and to anyone with even a passing knowledge of military matters that goes without saying.

Anonymous said...

I was in the Boys Brigade in Scotland, and your deceased friend was a liar.

Just look up the BB and its history to see that they never did this..it is there in black and white.

Rumbold said...

Terry:

I wanted to be in the army until I joined the cadets. Then I realised that I could not shoot or march properly so my ambition faded. Perhaps the proposed cadet force will instill anti-militarism amongst most of its recruits.

"A friend of mine recently deceased unfortunately told me that he and his brother drilled in the BB with wooden rifles."

My condolences, but watch out how you order your words.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Macnasty) 16:53

My late friend told me this and it did therefore happen.

A cursory glance at the history of the BB shows ample evidence of drilling etc. with rifles.

Anyway why do you seek a retraction ? Are you saying the BB was/is not militaristic ? Are you ashamed of it ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Macnasty) 17:04

I’ve never thought of the scouts as militaristic but now that you mention it, yes you are right, well done, they are both militaristic, well said that man !

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 17:30

They jolly well did you know.

Rumbold said...

From Wikipedia (don't know whether it is accurate):

"The Boys' Life Brigade was one of many similar movements formed by the Boys' Brigade's influence, sometimes along denominational or religious lines, including the Church Lads' Brigade, the Jewish Lads' Brigade, or the Catholic Boys' Brigade. The merger also prompted the abandonment of dummy drill rifles that had been used in The Boys' Brigade, due to the Life Brigade's objection to use of weapons or their representations. For some time afterwards, the section covering members aged 8–12 years was known as Life Boys, before being restyled as the Junior section (see below)."

Rumbold said...

Terry:

I too would be interested to know your source of reports that the army press-ganged people. I am not saying that you are wrong, just that I have never come across any cases.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 17:32

It’s you who is the liar go and look up the history of the BB and you will see that they did indeed do this.

And you are a devout coward.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Rumbold) 18:42

By all accounts an inability to shoot or march does not render you unsuitable for the Army, or indeed an inability to walk and chew gum at the same time, if you consider the Royal chuckle brothers.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Rumbold) 18:59

I was always aware that drilling with dummy rifles had been done and I was vaguely aware that it was the BB but it’s not the real point.

The real point is that they are a militaristic organisation and I find that to be a bad thing.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Rumbold) 19:01

Google - ‘press ganged’ wikopedia - impressment - contents box - item 6.

I was aware of this before and used Wikopedia to confirm it even though I’m not a great fan of the site.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Macnasty) 18:49

Stop trying to be clever, it doesn’t suit you and stop wasting my time.

I'm treating it in the same regal way that her majesty treats my attacks on her.

Macnasty said...

Kelly @ 6.54
'My late friend told me, so it is true.'

Councillor, the Mammy told me there was a tooth fairy, but I'm not sure she expected me to believe her.

David Duff said...

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear! I had a suspicion that modern 'edukashun' wasn't worth the paper that no one can write on anymore, but I had no idea that our spendid 'youfs' were so dim they didn't actually know that joining the army and going to war entailed "getting shot and killed or maimed". I don't know, they just don't teach history anymore. I blame the government - er, the old Tory one, of course, but that nice Mr. Balls will soon put things right - I mean, er, left ... oh, you know what I mean.

Scunnered, O'Aberdein said...

'and used Wikopedia to confirm it even though I’m not a great fan of the site.'

A fair comment, perhaps, if borne of being unlikely to find what you type in.

Anonymous said...

Blogger Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 17:30

They jolly well did you know.

Friday, April 18, 2008 6:59:00 P


No they didn't.

From Wikipaedia:
Impressment was strongly criticised by those who believed it to be contrary to the British constitution — unlike many of its continental rivals, Britain did not conscript its subjects for any other military service aside from a brief experiment with army impressment in 1778–80, and the public opposed conscription in general — but as impressment was deemed vital to the strength of the navy and, by extension, to the survival of the realm, it was repeatedly upheld by the courts. The impressment of seamen from American ships caused serious tensions between Britain and the United States in the years leading up to the War of 1812. After the defeat of Napoleon in 1814, Britain ended the practice and never resumed it.

so when you said..."but the Army also used 'impressment' on the lower classes of course, that goes without saying." You were actually talking out your proverbial. The other services did not press gang at all, and indeed never even had conscription. Experimented for a very short, but that is not the same thing as 'goes without saying.

These vile practices gradually died out and an equally vile practice came and replaced it 'conscription' this was because people in general are not as patriotic as the military and governments like to tell us, safeguards are needed to make people 'love their country' and, do their patriotic duty.

Lies to suit your argument, as has been demonstrated.

I would have thought that you would have given more honesty in your appraisal, but alas no.

You are a disgrace to the blogosphere, the UK, your constituency and us all in general.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Macnasty) 18/04/08

My late friend was a man of complete integrity. Your attitude to your mother is your business.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(David Duff) 18/04/08

David I think I’ve told you before, you are not nearly clever enough to carry this type of thing off.

I don’t see any argument here, sarcastic or otherwise.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Scunnered, O'Aberdein) 18/04/08

Drop the obsession with trying to be clever and just make yourself clear.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 08:52

“No they didn't”

“aside from a brief experiment with army impressment in 1778–80”

I don’t know where to begin, read the two lines above.

What were these 'other services' you refer to ?

Are you anonymous because you are a complete idiot ?

Rumbold said...

Terry:

While you were not altogether wrong about press-ganging in the army, it is clear that this hardly ever happened, and even Wikipedia confirmed it. Perhaps a slight re-adjustment of your position would be in order.

ShrekBall said...

Your attitude towards the cadet corps of this country is disappointing but entirely predictable.

I was a cadet and I firmly believe that those organisations are the single best social resource that the country's youth have. The BBC website ran a story recently about a black man who credited joining the Army Cadets (in his words "to look hard like the paras in a uniform") with steering him away from a life of crime.

As a senior cadet I encountered a young lad who followed his sister into the squadron. He was into drugs and was a petty criminal. I watched him turn his life around and many years later I met him in college having turned his life around - a situation he attributed to the cadets giving him something to work for.

Advancement through the classifications with academic achievement, promotion based on merit - all of which gives the kids a sense of achievement. I directly attribute my B in Higher English to the foundation in public speaking I acquired as an NCO in the cadets.

I also did learn target rifle handling although as a kid I was not very good.

I rejoined as an adult because I firmly believed that I owed the Corps for my start of life. I wanted to give back and I was able to shape some really sharp young minds.

On average a very small proportion of cadets go onto a military career but if you investigated a lot of people in prominent positions in this country you would find that a majority of them have some cadet experience.

I welcome the idea of extending the CCF into the State education service if only to remove the "class distinction" between the ACF/ATC/SCC and the CCF.

Anyway what I am saying is get yourself to your local cadet unit - as a local councilor they will be happy to chat with you. What you will find is that teenagers are being given the opportunity to stand on their own two feet and become upstanding members of society. What they cost from the defense budget is more than made back by the savings to youth justice or social security budgets and that is something any right-thinking person should welcome.

Macnasty said...

Ah well, Terry, you've pegged the BB and the Scouts as militaristic.

Please advise if I should I should also watch out for any lethal Brownies?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Rumbold) 14:22

‘My position’ is that the Navy used press ganging and the Army used impressment, that is a fact.

It’s a minor detail anyway and is being used to avoid what the piece was about.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(ShrekBall) 15:25

“Your attitude towards the cadet corps of this country is disappointing but entirely predictable” As is yours.

Perhaps you find it hard to accept but, there are people who look at the militarisation of young people as a blight on their lives and a sign of an unhealthy society, and I’m one of them.

My generation listened to fathers, uncles etc. who served and came back with a withering contempt for the armed forces which they took to their graves.

The whole lot of them should be scrapped and a proper education system introduced.

A proper internationalist education and a more civilised outlook on life might render these revolting groups superfluous.

The thought of young men and women being brainwashed into military ways is profoundly depressing, more so when it’s done in the name of Christianity, that’s breathtaking hypocrisy.

Remember “It’s Tommy this an it’s Tommy that” it hasn’t changed.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Macnasty) 18:21

I think I’ve already asked you but, certainly others, do you think these groups are not militaristic ?

oakwood said...

As a former BB member I was aware that (way before my time) boys did drill with wooden rifles. I have even seen black & white pictures of it on TV.

Therefore WAS the BB militaristic back in the day? The answer is certainly.

Is today's BB the same? Absolutely not. I must admit that I thouroughly enjoyed my days in the BB. Values such as respect & tolerance pervaded through everything we did and the friends that I made are still friends today.

My younger brother went to the Centenary Camp at Scone Palace in the eighties and met people from all over the world, from different backgrounds and cultures, (Africa, India, Australia) some of whom he is still in contact with today.

I can't see many other organisations that would let working class kids have that experience.

Sure & Steadfast

Jack McGurk said...

"The thought of young men and women being brainwashed into military ways is profoundly depressing, more so when it’s done in the name of Christianity,"

But if done in the name of Islam against the Jew you hate so much, then that is fine in your book.

Sam McLoud said...

"We are now being told that the Govt. is considering creating a Cadet Corps in schools, this is repugnant."

How is it repgnant exactly? Have you ever visited any of your local Sea, Air Army cadets to see what it is that they do?

Did you know that the Cadet Corps can enhance a cadets GSCE and A Level achievement by offering additional course in Aviation (BTEC) and other Geography and History related subjects?

My own son is currently attending a training day with the local air cadet corps. Today they are out learning field craft and orienteering. He has been there since December and hasn't seen so much as a pointed stick let alone a rifle.

The Cadet Corps is about so much more than "this is teaching kids how to kill, it's training for war". It teaches them self-discipline, self respect and respect for others.

Instead of criticising the scheme, please do your duty as an elected representative and visit one of these training centres and then pass judgement.

Daniel Daviot said...

Terry, I thought that as you are an avowed socialist, you would be delighted at Gorn Brownshirt's plans to introduce Cadet Training in schools.

After all, the greatest Socialist of them all had his own Cadet Corps:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth

Anonymous said...

"Unemployment blackspots have always been fertile ground for recruitment, Billy Connolly used to sing a rather poignant song..."

There's an easy solution to that - abolish the JSA! There is no shortage of jobs in our economy, and where there is, it's a shortage that could be solved by entrepreneurship. But if we continue paying people in your constituency to sit around and watch the Jeremy Kyle show while swigging buckie, the problem will always be there.

Macnasty said...

No Terry, I don't think the BB, Scouts, Guides, Brownies or Woodcraft Folk are militaristic.

I do, however,think the Komsomol were, but perhaps you disagree?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(oakwood) 19/04/08

“Is today's BB the same? Absolutely not”

The honest answer to this is ‘not as much’

It still encourages young boys to be soldiers and that is why I’m against it. I’ve no doubt that their activities are enjoyable but their ‘raison detre’ remains the same.

“I can't see many other organisations that would let working class kids have that experience”

Exactly, we should be providing these things without turning them into toy soldiers.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Jack McGurk) 08:56

Ridiculous,stupid and craven lies.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Sam McLoud) 09:04

I know what they do and I’ve no objection to kids learning to sail but not as junior members of the Navy, learning to climb and do gymnastics but not as boy soldiers and learning to fly but not as RAF pilots.

There is nothing inherently wrong with these and many other activities but, when you stick a uniform on a child and teach them to march and drill and act like members of the armed forces you are doing something which IMO is very wrong indeed.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Daniel Daviot) 09:20

So, you don’t have an argument then ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 13:26

Do the people you describe include the work shy Royal scroungers ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Macnasty) 15:05
Absolutely.

Macnasty said...

So, in the book according to Kelly, the Komsomol are not militaristic and, presumably, neither were the Hitler Youth, unlike the BB, Scouts, Guides, Brownies etc.

D'yknow Kelly, you're causing me to have grave doubts about the Salvation Army.

My sister Anna carries their banner - should I have a word in her shell like?

Kelly, you're a loon, but loveable.

tartan army 2222 said...

As much as I hate to agree with Terry Kelly (who I think is one of the most odious 'politicians' in Scotland) I have to say on the issue of guns, however, he is indeed correct. Prior to the First World War the Boys' Brigade did carry wooden guns. In the wake of that conflict it became apparent to the organisation that glorifying military might was perhaps not the smartest thing to teach kids. Go to www.scran.ac.uk and type in 'boys' 'brigade' and 'roslin'. You'll only get a thumbnail of them carrying guns. You can access the full site at your library.

Oh, and can't wait to see Terry's excuses for his fellow councillor!

Anonymous said...

"Do the people you describe include the Royals."

Actually, yes - I support independence - and in any case, would abolish the civil list and let the Royals live off the proceeds of estate management, which should be plenty. This doesn't make me a socialist, it makes me a libertarian.

However, I feel much less angry about being forced to subsidise about twenty people to live in lap of luxury than I do about subsidising many thousands of people right accross the central belt - especially you and the buckie-swigging welfare cheerleaders who elect your like to fight for more dole money.

In fairness, the royals do at least do something to justify the expense.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Macnasty) 20/04/08
I think it was ‘sister Hannah’ who carried that banner.

Any way “ onward Christian soldiers marching as to war” what’s militaristic about that ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(tartan army 2222) 20/04/08

(tartan army 2222) now there’s a real gung ho fighting machine.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 21/04/08

“let the Royals live off the proceeds of estate management” my god they will be scared of you right enough, reducing them to their last couple of hundred million quid, you’re a dangerous revolutionary aren’t you ?

“In fairness, the royals do at least do something to justify the expense”

You are nothing more than a gutless wimp, libertarian my Joe Royle.

Anonymous said...

I meant they do more than sit around all day and drink buckie, and then have the nerve to moan about capitalists like me who work hard and make money to provide jobs that they don't take up.

Macnasty said...

Kelly @ 9.41
My life Councillor, are you saying only Hannah's with an 'H' are allowed to carry banners in the Sally Army? I bet not many people knew that.

You add to the store of human knowledge with each post.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 10:53

I very much doubt if you have ever done an honest days work in your life, most people who indulge in self praise are the same.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Macnasty) 11:04

Not really, just pointing out your misquote to annoy you, seems to have worked.

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...

Councillor Terry Kelly: 11:24
I very much doubt if you have ever done an honest days work in your life, most people who indulge in self praise are the same.

Councillor Terry Kelly: 9:29:00 AM
I’m very rarely wrong !

shrekball said...

Myself and the parent of a probationer cadet have now both asked but I will do it again.

Will you consider visiting a local unit so you can base your argument on first hand experience.instead of your received ignorance that makes you such a figure of fun?

Anonymous said...

"I very much doubt if you have ever done an honest days work in your life" (sic)

Terry, I am about about a third of your age and am willing to bet that I have done at least three times more "honest work" in my life than you. If you really want to know, I have been working, with about two hours' break, since 7O'clock this morning while you have been "busy" spending my hard-earned.

"Most people who indulge in self-praise are the same"

Oh the irony!!!

For info, I don't particularly care that the Royals live off estate management, because to me there's no moral difference between that and Richard Branson's kids or Jamie Packer, or countless other rich, lucky kids all over the world, inheriting their parents' wealth. I don't, however, think I should then have to fund the civil list on top of that. I would have thought you would have agreed? Surely that position is better from your point of view than the status quo?

In any case, however much the Civi List is, I'm pretty sure that it would not be enough to even pay for the unemployment benefits greedily snaffled by locals in Ferguslie alone.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(The Incorrigible Plagiarist) 21/04/08

I forgot, I’ve got to make allowances for you, that was a mistake what I should have wrote was “I’m never wrong” geddit ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(shrekball) 21/04/08

I have done this already as part of council duties.

Do you think I would be surprised at what they do ? I find that quite silly.

I have explained before but maybe it wasn’t to you, I have no objection to the activities taught and enjoyed by these young people, nor do I have anything against those who give up their time to be involved.

My objection is to the militarisation of young people, I regard marching, drilling, saluting and the wearing of uniforms to be wrong, I regard it as a blight on young lives and on society.

Young people learning to sail is fine but not as Navy Sailors, likewise learning engineering, gymnastics etc. but not as young soldiers, learning to fly likewise but not as young RAF pilots. Can you understand that ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 21/04/08

“lucky kids all over the world, inheriting their parents' wealth” I wonder if you really understand this at all.

Branson, odious as he is, has his own money, the Royals have our money !

That’s where they got the great estates and castles, are you following this ?

Jack McGurk said...

"Branson, odious as he is, has his own money, the Royals have our money !

That’s where they got the great estates and castles, are you following this ?"

And if all the Royal estates were handed back, what do you think the Liebour Government would do?

Hand them out to their mates as Comrade Bob did with the farms in Zimbabwe

ShrekBall said...

You claim to have visited local units as part of your duties.

Which units would those be?

I only ask because your position appears to be based on hearsay and conjecture. Anyone visiting any of these units will see discipline, structure and meaning to the activities. These are things that you should be welcoming.

Because they are taught drill this is a bad thing? Why? Is learning to drill inherently bad? I learned to drill - I was quite good at it - but I did not join up. Drill is not a gateway activity into the armed forces.

Why is saluting so bad? You say you are against it but have yet to present an argument for it. Simply saying "it is a blight" is very vague. Surely a specific example as to why it is a blight would strengthen your argument here?

You object to uniforms. Is this just in cadet organisations or do you object to uniforms in school as well?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(ShrekBall) 15:39

“I only ask because your position appears to be based on hearsay and conjecture”

What position is that ? I’m an ex member of the Scouts and the Army Cadets and I’ve visited the Sea Cadets.

“These are things that you should be welcoming”

Does your cadet training teach you to be so arrogant as to tell people what they should be welcoming ?

I’m getting fed up repeating it but, marching, drilling, saluting, wearing uniforms etc. is militaristic and dangerous to young minds.

I object to military uniforms on children.

I don’t trust you and I’m not comfortable giving details, I think you are perfectly capable of causing them embarrassment.

Anonymous said...

I was in the BB's, learn't to read a map, first aid and how to put up a tent, we did drill but more sport than anything else, I seemed to have missed the assualt training badge. It always struck me as a compassionate Christian organisation, chuch was the only thing that put me off, anyway the BB's do a lot more good, for a lot less money than your beloved labour party!, why so churlish Terry?, I hear that Cuba has a Castro youth organisation- I bet they train with the real thing

Anonymous said...

I’m getting fed up repeating it but, marching, drilling, saluting, wearing uniforms etc. is militaristic and dangerous to young minds.

The rubbish you spout borders on real madness at times, and your hypocrisy knows no bounds at all,

Cuba and uniforms...? Soviet Union? It seems that uniforms are fine depending on the regime, or dictatorship, currently in power. BTW drilling etc. is not specifically military but is a means to teach discipline and teamwork...but you knew that already didn't you, but it doesn't quite fit in with your argument.

And no-one believes your claim that you were a cadet of any sort; you are incapable and always were.

Sam McCloud said...

"I’m getting fed up repeating it but, marching, drilling, saluting, wearing uniforms etc. is militaristic and dangerous to young minds."

So hanging around street corners drinking cheap cider and harrassing law abiding citizens is preferable in your eyes than joining a cadet corps and making something of their lives.

Perhaps if the young thugs that kicked Gary Newlove to death, and the young thugs that kicked Sophie Lancaster to death had joined the cadet corps, both Gary and Sophie would be alive today.

You make me sick! You would rather our youth become feral thugs than be given direction and a sense of self respect. You are not fit to hold public office.

ShrekBall said...

Ah...you were an Army Cadet and you have visited Sea Cadet units. Now that explains a lot.

How long were you a cadet for?

Try the ATC councillor.

My cadet training taught me right from wrong and also taught me to stand up to loud bullyboys. Teachings that I find invaluable when dealing with you.

And again I note that you simply say that putting a military uniform on children in dangerous without telling us why. I suspect that this is because you cannot express why. You simply have a vague feeling that this is wrong but cannot elaborate. So you shout and intimidate.

Chalcedon said...

We had a CCF at school. Army, Navy and air cadets. i learned to shoot very accurately with a 303 lee enfield and how to handle a bren gun. It was good fun, including the discipline part of it. Virtually all the masters had been soldiers in their time. We drilled with real rifles BTW (late 1960s, early 1970's).
Cadet corps should be encouraged. Nothing wrong with some military training.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 22/04/08

I’m opposed to militarism, it’s that simple. I realise of course that it’s a big leap for people like you to admit the truth.

Marching, drilling, saluting and para military uniforms, all very Christian and compassionate right enough, what Christ are you talking about ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 22/04/08

You seem to be unravelling a bit, I said that military uniforms on children is brainwashing and very wrong
I didn’t say uniforms on proper soldiers was wrong, they are an unfortunate but necessary evil.

Army Cadets ? 1962 - 1963 Glenburn Army Cadet unit, run by Sergeant Joe McGoldrick who was also my teacher at StMirin’s Academy.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Sam McCloud) 08:21

Spoken like a true reactionary thug, a mixture of lies and prejudice which could have easily come from Alf Garnett.

‘Sam McCloud’ the ‘saloon bar commando’

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(ShrekBall) 11:13

“Putting a military uniform on a child is dangerous” am I the only person that you are aware of who thinks like this, have you honestly never heard this before ? Why are you lying about this, is it guilt ?

“Teachings that I find invaluable when dealing with you” well written that man !


Anyone who needs the Army Cadets to teach them right from wrong is in deep deep trouble.

Anonymous said...


I’m opposed to militarism, it’s that simple. I realise of course that it’s a big leap for people like you to admit the truth.

Marching, drilling, saluting and para military uniforms, all very Christian and compassionate right enough, what Christ are you talking about ?


But still you love Cuba....

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 18:16

Why not ? What christ is that again ?

Sam McCloud said...

"‘Sam McCloud’ the ‘saloon bar commando’"

And you sir are an apolgist for feral youth and our lawless society.

I'd stay away from street corners, if I were you.

Jack McGurk said...

TK 21/04: "Any way “ onward Christian soldiers marching as to war” what’s militaristic about that ?"

TK 23/04: "Marching, drilling, saluting and para military uniforms, all very Christian and compassionate right enough, what Christ are you talking about ?"

Irony alert! Irony alert!

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Sam McCloud) 07:22

Hanging is too good for them Sam, what they need is good boot up the A--E

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Jack McGurk) 07:26

Marching in to battle da da da da da what Christ was that again ?

ShrekBall said...

"Anyone who needs the Army Cadets to teach them right from wrong is in deep deep trouble."

Totally, 110%, wholeheartedly agree. I was never an Army Cadet.

And as for the uniforms on kids thing I can tell you that you are not the only person I have heard say this. But like the others you are incapable of explaining WHY you think this. Everyone who I have heard make this claim simply says "because it is" when asked why and then, like you, claim legitimacy in numbers. And of course mob rule is always the answer in a civilised society.

So if I accept that there are others that feel the same way as you then can I ask you again why you feel uniforms on kids is a bad thing?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(ShrekBall) 11:39

“Totally, 110%, wholeheartedly agree. I was never an Army Cadet”

A brilliant debating point, I reckon you weren’t smart enough to get in to the Army Cadets.

‘Militarism’ “exaltation of military virtues and ideals” check it up.

“We use progressive, structured and, most important, enjoyable programmes of adventurous, sporting, educational and military-themed activities, their training gives a life-long respect for the dangers of the rifles they so attentively learn to fire”

(Brigadier Mike Wharmby)
General Secretary
Army Cadet Force Association
London EC2

ShrekBall said...

So this comes down to them learning to handle a rifle?

That is true discipline. Mess that up and you will change your life forever. It is about trust between the supervising RCO and the cadet.

Rifles in the cadets are fired on 25m ranges at generic targets (no longer the Running Man) for accuracy/groupings. Tend to be a tin hat or a SBRA 10-spot target for those units affiliated to the NRA. As far as I know no cadet has ever undergone field maneuvers with an assault rifle. Indeed only recently has the law changed to allow a cadet to handle a semi-automatic gas fed rifle. Until then it was the woeful L98 and its crap handle.

Rifle handling in this context is actually safer than Home Economic lessons in school where they may get their hands on a knife.

I looked that lot up. Are military ideals and values not self-reliance, discipline, respect and character? If so how could you object to having organisations that impart that foundation of good citizenship onto the youth of today?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(ShrekBall) 15:21

I don’t need to hear all that piffle, I’ve already told you that, you clearly get a great buzz out of this.

“If so how could you object to having organisations that impart that foundation of good citizenship onto the youth of today”

These values you mention are constants but the Cadets don’t need to impart them.

Zealous, often misguided adults living out their dreams use them and this helps to propagate militarism.

Daniel Dravot said...

"Zealous, often misguided adults living out their dreams use them and this helps to propagate militarism."

See Fidel Castro, Joe Stalin, Pol Pot, Robert Mugabe, Hugo Chavez and Che Guevara.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Daniel Dravot) 09:08

It may have escaped your notice but this article was about the dangers of militarism raised by the possibility of the Govt. creating Cadet Units in our schools.

Daniel Dravot said...

And it may have escaped your notice that the idea is deemed to be a good one in the eyes of Gordon "Courage" Brown.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Daniel Dravot) 27/04/08

Not much gets past you Daniel eh ? Anyway Gordon is a Raith Rovers supporter !

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Daniel Dravot) 27/04/08

Not much gets past you Daniel eh ? Anyway Gordon is a Raith Rovers supporter !

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Daniel Dravot) 27/04/08

Not much gets past you Daniel eh ? Anyway Gordon is a Raith Rovers supporter !