Tuesday, January 15, 2008

SOUTH AFRICA AND 'THE TIMES THEY ARE A'CHANGING'

White supremacists in SA took another welcome blow last week when a black coach was appointed to the National Rugby Team, one of the still standing bastions of white privilege and racism, not before time.

The 'Springboks' will become the 'Proteas' the (national flower) another slap in the face for the racists is that the son of a famous white player who was a supporter of the ANC will become the captain, Luke Watson son of Dan 'cheeky' Watson who was good enough to play for SA but turned them down because of their racism, his life was threatened for this. The name for this is progress.

Some white players are refusing to play under a black coach and Luke Watson could be made captain, he has been regarded as the best player in the country but the Springboks refused to pick him because of his and his fathers' opposition to apartheid but that's where race hatred leads you.

As Bob Dylan sang "you better start swimming or you'll sink like a stone for the times they are a'changing" or in the words of Dr. King "free at last, free at last, thank God Almighty we are free at last" OK it's only a game, but it's a start.

45 comments:

Rabbie said...

S. Africa 'Times, they are a'changin.'

Oh no they're not. Jacob Zuma, President of the ANC,is trying to force through a resolution disbanding a law enforcement agency called the Scorpions.

Is it a coincidence that Zuma is currently facing corruption charges brought by the Scorpions?

A further two coincidences - near the top of the ANC, we have an MP who was gaoled for corruption (after investigation by the Scorpions) and another with whom the S.A. Communist Party and the Scorpions, have been discussing a rather large donation that has gone astray.

You have a problem with this one Terry my boy, because the President of S.A., Thabo Mbeki, thinks the Scorpions are jolly good and wants to keep them, so not sure you can play your usual racist card.

Max said...

"Some white players are refusing to play under a black coach"

Could you possible link to a reference for that assertion? I can't seem to find any report of it through a Google News search.

I'd hate to think that you were just making things up for effect.

Although - on the subject of South Africans... any comment on Hain?

redwing said...

As a fellow socialist and anti-racism campaigner I am appalled that you would welcome this appointment. The head of South African Rugby said that he was not the best candidate for the job but that they were leaned on to appoint a black man.

This is simply the white South Africans saying that the black folks need a help - like they are not good enough.

Every player has to be the best to represent their country and each one of them, regardless of colour, should refuse to be called up until the same criteria is applied to the coach.

Serpico said...

For some one whose only travel experience is between refrigerator and sof, you seem to know an awful lot about a place you've never visited.

Anonymous said...

You have clearly just made up the stuff about the change of name. There is no reference to it in the SARU website or in Wikipedia. SARU website continues to refer to the Springboks.

I think someone was playing a little joke on you with that one.

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...

The Springboks will become the Proteas?

What will the cricket team be known as after that?

The story of Dan 'Cheeky' Watson is indeed a sorry tale, from South Africa's past, but you can hardly argue that Jake White's team selections are not vindicated (he did win the rugby world cup after all).

It would be pretty easy to argue that Schalk Berger is a better option in the back row too, well for someone looking at the story objectively rather than one who is simply regurgitating a Guardian article as if it were gospel.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Rabbie) 15/01/08 - Well Well it's 'rabbie the scab“ as well as 'rabbie the SA racist'

"Oh no they're not. Jacob Zuma, President of the ANC,is trying to force through a resolution disbanding a law enforcement agency called the Scorpions“.

Is this agency something like ‘Blackwater’ in Iraq ?

An MP jailed for corruption ? It couldn’t happen here could it ?

SA has a long struggle on it’s hands because of the evil people who ran the country for all those years but they will win in the end.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Max) 10:08 -

This story started after the Springboks won the world cup and people starting to notice again that SA rugby was still dominated by racism.

Check the ‘Sunday Observer’ 13/01/08

It’s not necessary to make up bad stories about white supremacist SA’s they have always been the pariahs of world sport.

Hain ? You are right to mention him, he has a great reputation for fighting SA racism, I remember supporting the ‘stop the tour demos.’

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(redwing) 13:04 - I don’t remember saying that I welcomed this appointment, I'm not qualified to say who is the best coach, he states that he is committed to having 10 black players in the team and if they are not the best players I wouldn’t welcome that either.

The last coach was not the best for the job because he was a racist and only tolerated the occasional black and banned Watson.

I welcome the white racist SA rugby establishment getting blown away, presumably you do as well ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Serpico) 14:21 -

I have been aware of SA politics for approx. 40 yrs.

I’ve been on demos. Boycotts’ campaigns’ etc. I’m not an expert but I’ve got a reasonable grasp of it.

I’ve never been to the USA but like most people I’ve got a fair idea about it. Your point seems vacuous.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 15:31 -

You really think I made that up ? Wow. Well idiot, the joke if it is a joke was perpetrated by the ’Sunday Observer’ 13/01/08. What an absolute eejit !

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(The Incorrigible Plagiarist) 15:36 -

You can’t bring yourself to condemn them can you ? Jake White ignored young Watson because of his father’s support for the ANC - Jake White was a racist - winning the world cup does not mean you picked the best players.

The Guardian, the Sunday Observer, the New Statesman and many others including web sites, in that sense I’m unlike you, you just know things don’t you, you don’t need to find out.

I’ve really tried to be nice but, you are a fool, a total eejit and an apologist for racism.

Rabbie said...

(Cllr Kelly 6.36)
The 'Scorpions' is a nickname for an official law enforcement agency of the SA government in exactly the same way that the 'Harry Margolis' is a nickname for the plod, so no Terry, they are not remotely similar to Blackwater or Mad Bob's 5th Brigade in Zimbabwe either.
I didn't think you could play the racist card on this one, but hands up, you've managed it.
Finally, a British MP guilty of corruption, presumably Tory? O.K., I'll see your MP and raise you one Female Party Leader, an Orange Cabinet Minister and a PM interviewed by the police.

Anonymous said...

The union site carries nothing, the fan sites carry nothing. But on some forums there are tedious debates on it.

The name change is a very old story that has no official backing. The Sunday observer picked up this rumour and reproduced it as fact, which you then cited.

It is strange that in another post you should point out that a certain paper should not be trusted but in this case you put all your faith in one?

And now you you look a bit foolish.

Rabbie said...

(Cllr Kelly 7.00)
Terry
Just noticed your bit in praise of Hain.
I dont like repeating myself, but on this occasion.....
The Great Orange Anti Apartheid Campaigner solicited a large donation to his Deputy Leadership Fund from a man called Isaac Kaye, pro apartheid and currently under investigation for defrauding the NHS.
I suppose it could be that one of them has mellowed and the other has seen the error of his ways, but then again, I believe in Father Christmas.

Serpico said...

"Your point seems vacuous."

Pot, kettle, black, springs to mind.

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...


Jake White ignored young Watson because of his father’s support for the ANC


Actually he said that he was too small for the role that he wanted his back row to fulfill - check the plaudits that the World Champion South African XV's back row received for their performance in RWC2007. Check the comments from the other teams on how difficult it was to combat the South African line-out due to the way they used the back row.

It's not about condemning racism here, it's about whether your 'facts' stand up to scrutiny. Alas, they don't.


Jake White was a racist


??


- winning the world cup does not mean you picked the best players.


Not that Luke Watson actually was the best player in that position, (we've already established that you know hee-haw about rugby, so don't keep banging that broken drum) but I'm sure you would concede that rarely do the 11 best players constitute the best team in football. Team is the word, and Jake White put out the team that won the world cup. He is entirely vindicated in his selection.


The Guardian, the Sunday Observer, the New Statesman


Gosh! Such broad horizons councillor.


and many others including web sites, in that sense I’m unlike you, you just know things don’t you, you don’t need to find out.


Here's a little something from the
ANC website


I'll cut and paste a salient point for you.

"Jake White was reported as saying that the selection of a record nine black
players was 'very special for me. When I took the job 18 months ago I said there
were black players good enough to play for South Africa. It is about creating
opportunities. To be able to pick nine black players in a Test against Australia
shows we are creating these opportunities.'

"The national rugby coach insisted that he had selected a team he was convinced
could and would win the match against the Wallabies. In other words, the black
players he had selected were 'good enough to play for South Africa.' They had
been chosen on merit, as excellent rugby athletes.

"This view was echoed by the ANC national spokesperson, member of our National
Executive Committee and former rugby player, Smuts Ngonyama. He said: 'I know
Jake White and he won't pick a team that he doesn't think can win. Winning is
always first and foremost on his mind. It is wonderful, and I think we have a
backline and pack of forwards that will beat the Australians. Now (that) we have
speed and power, it should be a brilliant match.' (The Springboks managed to
retain the Plate by defeating the Wallabies 33-20 at Ellis Park!)


Still, it's not that I didn't expect you to start slinging unfounded insults in my direction, but so early in the thread, tut tut!


I’ve really tried to be nice but, you are a fool, a total eejit and an apologist for racism.


Oh aye! that's right, you never stoop to the ad-hominem unless retaliating, shame councillor, shame!

Paul Roos said...

"Luke Watson could be made captain, he has been regarded as the best player in the country but the Springboks refused to pick him because of his and his fathers' opposition to apartheid but that's where race hatred leads you."

And Watson's non-selection had nothing to do with "bringing the game into disrepute" after comments made in a SA Sports Illustrated article in 2006, did it Terry?

As Scotland's foremost expert on South African affairs, it amazes me that you missed this.

Then again, why let the truct get in the way of your jaundiced view of a ountry you've never visited?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Rabbie) -

I don’t understand this - I attack the white racist SA rugby set up and I’m a racist ! how’s that ?

You accuse SA of several things in your comment all of which happen here and in other western countries, SA has many problems but, they have the excuse of being a fledgling country and have been misruled by racists for years, it will take time to stabilise after that.
I suspect you know that but you would rather excuse apartheid.

Maybe I’ve got it wrong maybe the SA rugby set up was never racist and maybe it isn’t now, what do you think ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 16/01/08 -

I don’t think I look foolish at all but, threatened changes to the rule of the white regime in SA Rugby certainly seems to annoy you. Why would that be ?

You describe this situation as 'tedious' I think it's wonderful absolutely fantastic.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Rabbie) 16/01/08 -

I don’t believe this, perhaps you could get Hain’s version of events and print that, maybe he’ll agree with you.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Serpico) 17/01/08 - As I said, vacuous.

Anonymous said...

No it is tedious because it has been ongoing for years and is stale.

You are attempting to change the focus here, the fact is you cites a newspaper that reproduced rumour and wishful thinking as fact. I googled for SA rugby fan sites, checked out about 10 of them with no peep. I also searched the Observer site and could not find your article (maybe they pulled it after publication). So will you admit that it looks like your claim the name is being changed is at best suspicious? And if you do it kind of makes it hard to trust anything else you write.

Unless of course this post was another one of your "get out of jail free" jokes?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(The Incorrigible Plagiarist) 17/01/08 -

You are entitled to your opinion about Jake White and you are also entitled to defend the white SA rugby elite, I disagree with you.

I did not say anything about Luke Watson’s best position I haven’t the authority to do that.
You apparently do and that, in the case of Watson allows you to muddy the water and excuse White.

“I'm sure you would concede that rarely do the 11 best players constitute the best team in football. Team is the word“,

I thought that I had made that very point, you accept that the best ’team’ consists of all white players with the occasional black getting a game, no doubt you tell yourself that that’s just a coincidence, I don’t.

“Jake White put out the team that won the world cup. He is entirely vindicated in his selection“.

Jake White picked a team based on colour, people like you might regard victory as a vindication of that but I don’t.

I note your quote from the ANC but you seem to be ignoring the fact that there is now a backlash against those blacks in high positions who arguably gave the white racist elite too much credit and too much time to clean up it’s act, the world cup was the catalyst for people saying ‘enough is enough they will never change unless we make them’

I withdraw the word ‘eejit’ but you are an apologist for racism.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Paul Roos) 17/01/08 - "bringing the game into disrepute"

So the White racist elite who ran the game brought this charge against a player whose dad was a famous anti apartheid campaigner, a player who was anti racist and a constant thorn in their sides, are you not just a tiny wee bit gullible ? Why have I never heard of this ?

Please explain why never having been to SA is relevant.
Perhaps it’s the case that if I visited I would have learned that it was nice for blacks under apartheid. It was pleasant in prison, the hangings and torture didn’t take place, I really should visit and have my eyes opened.

Rabbie said...

(Cllr Kelly 3.39)
Terry, you're right not to believe it - I dont really think there is a Father Christmas.

But as for the Kaye donation and his pro apartheid and NHS activity, they are a matter of record.

The donation was paid through that very dodgy Thinktank of Mr Hains, perhaps so that Old Labour innocents like yourself wouldn't spot it.

Yet another Kelly Hero with feet of clay - I feel for you old son, I really do, but you do pick some crackers dont you?

Anonymous said...

Luke Watson accused the coach of lacking integrity and questioned qualifications of world cup winning captain Smit. He was not included in the team because his personality was considered to be too arrogant and abrasive for team bonding.

I suspect you have not heard of this because you do not follow rugby and you pick out snippets of information that fit your narrative. You state earlier that someone else did not "find out" they simply instinctively "knew" something. Given the almost religious belief you have in your own version of events I suspect that it is you who instinctively "knows" something.

Everyone else who follows rugby (or buys Rugby World) knows this story and it was a non-event at the time.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 16:14 -
It’s tedious to you because it is shining a light on the shameful racism which still exists in SA rugby.

I quoted the Observer on the ‘name change’ speak to them.
I think the name change worries you because ‘Springbok’ will be cast aside (if it happens) as a remnant of a team and an era which brought sport into disrepute.

The ’Springboks’ were the emblem of a dark period for SA, for sport and for mankind, and people like you are still desperately trying to excuse the inexcusable.

SA under Apartheid and SA rugby then and now are an example of how low man can stoop.

“I also searched the Observer site and could not find your article”

This sounds like you are suggesting that I made up an article in a national newspaper which was out last Sunday, “The Sunday Observer” are you actually a SA ? just how stupid are you ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Rabbie) 16:42 -

Peter Hain is taking money from a man who is a supporter of Apartheid, you’ll have to do better than that, what does Hain say about this accusation ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Anonymous) 16:51 -

You are right I haven’t heard of this but it doesn’t surprise me, he was lucky they didn’t lynch him.

Is it possible that he would not have been good for ’team bonding’ because he would have been an ANC supporter among a bunch of racists ?

“ Luke Watson accused the coach of lacking integrity and questioned qualifications of world cup winning captain Smit ”

Questioning another player’s ability is a rather weak charge, accusing the coach of lacking integrity seems rather accurate given that SA have never had a coach who picked players on ability alone, that is a lack of integrity right there. Let me simplify it for you the words ‘integrity and ‘racism’ do not sit easily together.

That lack of integrity applies to everyone, players, coaches, officials and supporters who colluded then and now with the whole ugly business of SA rugby.

Rabbie said...

(Cllr Kelly 16.42)
Terry
Re Hain and that donation from an apartheid supporter that you 'don't believe.' (Hain isn't replying to my emails by the way)

Suppressing an unmanly fit of the giggles, can I ask you to Google a site called 'Socialist Party.' and read 'Hain's Sorry Saga of Sleaze,' dated 17th Jan.

Yo'd be proud of their banner - 'News,Policy, Marxism.'

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Rabbie) 18/01/08 - I think I’ve mentioned to you before that you don’t seem to have much of a clue as to how politics works haven’t I.

You see any ‘Socialist Party’ with the banner ‘News , Policy , Marxism’ is likely to be even more hostile to Hain than even a scab racist like you. You don’t have a clue do you?

Rabbie said...

(Cllr Kelly 7.12)

You're taking some convincing, you little Tinker.

Or is this Kelly humour?

Are you already convinced Hain is bent and winding ne up?

You were also very rude about the 'Socialist Party.' After they used such kind words about Castro, Stalin and Honecker, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Rabbie) 19:52 -

Did you understand anything I said about this ‘Socialist’ Party and their attitude to Hain, am I wasting my time ? Do you grasp any of this ?

You see the so called Socialist Parties that we know like the SS and Solidarity would regard me as a right wing capitalist. Does that help in any tiny way to explain this ?

Paul Roos said...

"Please explain why never having been to SA is relevant."

I've never been to Scotland but I don't think that the Scottish people are all stupid. However, reading your blog may change my opinion of that. They must be completely stupid to keep electing armchair commentators onto their local councils.

By visiting and living in a country it is possible for you to gain first hand the experiences of all the peoples of that country rather than reading the opinions of journalists who often have their own agendas and offer their own opinions as fact. You, sir, seem to have fallen under their spell.

I have visited many African countries and found the truth to be so much more different than the garbage printed in the mainstream media.

Paul Roos said...

"The ’Springboks’ were the emblem of a dark period for SA, for sport and for mankind, and people like you are still desperately trying to excuse the inexcusable."

You are wrong again. The Springbok is the symbol of the national fauna of SA, just as the Protea is the symbol of national flora. It is only the vocal minority that view the Springbok as a symbol of apartheid.

Madiba himself has stated that the Springbok is a symbol of unity for all SA sportsmen and women.

Rabbie said...

Cllr Kelly 19.52
No need to be so peevish Councillor - I'm Tory so you can't expect me to be aware of all the options you lunatics have under the banner of Socialism.

Now, back to Hain and his begging bowl - have you given up defending the incompetent prat.

Lexy said...

'an Orange Cabinet Minister'?

Is Adam Ingram still in the cabinet?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Paul Roos) 08:43 -

“ I've never been to Scotland but I don't think that the Scottish people are all stupid “

That’s the same with me and SA’s. Although the white SA’s elected evil racists and thugs for years.

“ reading the opinions of journalists who often have their own agendas “ this doesn’t wash anymore, anyone who suggests that you have to visit SA to understand what went on and is going on is clutching at straws.

You sir, are an apologist for evil and you are too ashamed to admit it.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Paul Roos) 08:46 -

“You are wrong again. The Springbok is the symbol of the national fauna of SA, just as the Protea is the symbol of national flora. It is only the vocal minority that view the Springbok as a symbol of apartheid “

I wasn’t referring to the fauna I was referring to the SA Rugby team, but you know that don’t you, you are pathetic you are trying to split hairs.

What kind of people are you ? Will you ever accept you guilt ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Rabbie) 11:15 -

This is coming close to admitting your political naivety, well done.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(Rabbie) 11:15 -

This is coming close to admitting your political naivety, well done.

Paul Roos said...

"What kind of people are you ? Will you ever accept you guilt ?"

Guilt for what? For preventing the kaffirs from murdering each other?

For preventing the country descending into the morass of socialist corruption a la Zimbabwe.

We, the white South Africans have nothing to be guilty of. Pity my grandfather didn't shoot your grandfather suring the Boer War.

The Incorrigible Plagiarist said...


I did not say anything about Luke Watson’s best position I haven’t the authority to do that.


No, but you insisted that he was not selected because of his fathers protests against Apartheid rather than because of his ability or lack of...


You apparently do and that, in the case of Watson allows you to muddy the water and excuse White.


You were the one who wrongly held up Luke White as an example of prejudice or rather you regurgitated a Guardian article without checking its veracity.

You are the one who gives the racist the opportunity to muddy the waters with your inaccuracies and false accusations.


Jake White picked a team based on colour,


Correct, but as usual barking up the wrong tree - Jake White was forced to include black players that otherwise would not have made the squad.

The question is at the grassroots levels and whether or not the opportunities for young black players to develop into international quality rugby players exist.


I note your quote from the ANC but you seem to be ignoring the fact that there is now a backlash against those blacks in high positions who arguably gave the white racist elite too much credit and too much time to clean up it’s act,


So it's the blacks fault now ???
You're something else!


I withdraw the word ‘eejit’ but you are an apologist for racism.


I'm anything but an apologist for racism, but when a simpleton like you damages the prospect of progress on these issues I do get a bit miffed. There are racists out there delighted that you are holding up Luke Watson as an example. Align that with your position that several wrongs will eventually make a right and you simply throw oil on the fire.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

(The Incorrigible Plagiarist) 21/01/08 -

“You were the one who wrongly held up Luke White as an example of prejudice or rather you regurgitated a Guardian article without checking its veracity”

wrong, I’m not the only one, it wasn’t in the Guardian but, this story has been rumbling along for a good while, commented on by various publications and on the internet.

“No, but you insisted that he was not selected because of his fathers protests”

That’s what various commentators say it seems to be quite well known I’m afraid, it’s not my story.

I think I’m allowed to choose who I believe, after all this is not SA under apartheid is it ? You can’t stop people any more can you ?

You accuse me of saying that ‘it’s the blacks fault’ and call ME a simpleton !

SA under Apartheid and SA sport then and still now was and is one of the low points in the history of mankind, people like you are apologists for it, quite shameful.