Friday, June 08, 2007

PALESTINE - 40 YRS. ON

I was 18 yrs old when the 6 day war took place in the Middle East 40 yrs. ago, I thought then that Israel was a heroic place and that Palestinians were the bad guys, I now know different.

My sympathy was with the Jews after their suffering during the war, this was only approx. 20 yrs since the horrors of Auschwitz and my views on the Arabs were formed by a media which was vehemently pro Israel and anti Arab, it took me years to eventually take a proper interest and now it never goes away.

The territory occupied in the war is still occupied now and the Palestinian people are suffering and dying, I began to ask myself 'how could the Jewish people do this to another people after what they had suffered' 1.4 million now live in Gazza with no hope, the worlds biggest prison. 5 million Palestinian refugees in the middle East, A massive fence has been built to imprison Arabs and steal more land, an Aparthied Fence, who would have thought that Jewish people could do something like that ? Remember, this is being done by Israel, Palestinians are now left with 12% of what was once their homeland.

The International community led by America allows this to happen - this a war crime and Israel is committing it, the image which the world sees is a Palestinian child throwing a stone at an Israeli tank, when will it end ? when will the Arabs get justice ?

When Israel was created and the Palestinian people lost their homes, farms and villages, Israel's first prime minister the Zionist thug Ben Gurion said about the plight of the Palestinians "the old will die and the young will forget" he's not the first victorious brute to be wrong as the young people of Palestine continue to prove.

The old do indeed die but the young continue to remember, and so it will continue until justice is done by the -Palestinians, this is Israel's shame.

66 comments:

Jackart said...

"When will the Arabs get Justice?"

When they stop demanding "Death to the Jewish Pigs" perhaps? When they stop supporting vicious theocratic dictatorships?

Israelis are the only Democracy in the middle east and I would rather be an Israeli Arab (who have full rights) than an Arab living in any other state in the middle east (except possibly Jordan, ruled by Hashemites, not Arabs), where they don't.

The Main oppressor of the Arabs are... Arabs. The Israilis are (once again) merely a scapegoat.

Admit it, you'd have loved herding them into the ovens 60 years ago.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Jackart - Hamas won a democratic election. Israeli Arabs are opposed to the Israeli state as well.

Your last two lines show you up as an apologist for war criminals and a racist.

Maybe if you talk tougher and use even more awful language some people might be frightened by you, but I doubt it.

Anonymous said...

well said that man. there is too many right wing sites out there like the bbc who just tell the israeli side of the story.

thanks for getting sticking up for the palli people. you fight all the right battles.

Jackart said...

What's Hamas got to do with it? That's plaestine... There are Arabs in the Knesset you know. You're a pathetic, bigoted lard-bucket.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Jackart - You are the idiot who said that Israel was the only democratic state etc. 'wrong' Hamas won under intense international scrutiny and still the Israel / American thugs won't accept it, their democracy only applies if you vote for their wishes.

'Arabs in the Knesset' yes but, the majority of Israeli Arabs are opposed to the Israeli occupation.

You are a real scary guy.

Rumbold said...

I thought that the Israelis had withdrawn from Gaza (though perhaps not Gazza), and the deaths there were occuring because of Hamas-Fatah fighting.

C4' said...

Choosing between two lots of Jew-hating terrorists (Hamas and Fatah) is hardly democratic.

Neither is choosing between two communist candidates in election behind the Iron Curtain at the end of the 1980s or choosing between Labour, the SNP or the Liberal Democrats in Scotland today.

Jackart said...

Palestinians are really demonstrating commitment to democratic politics at the moment aren't they?

Your hopeless Naivete and I would find appealing in a child, but in an elected representative it's appalling.

Worse than the world-view of child-like simplicity is the view that Israel & Bush are gangsters, pulling strings around the world to malign ends is straight out of "the protocols of the elders of Zion".

You may whine about being "Anti Israeli" not a racist. But you're using the same arguments that were used to justify the holocaust. You're fine with the Jews so long as they aren't assertive, religious, or defend themselves; and stick to music and Left-wing philosophy. The moment they get temporal, political power and a homeland. BANG - you're an anti-semite.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

rumbold - 'Palestine' I don't know if you are being deliberately disingenuous but I'll answer anyway.

There are over 5 million Palestinian refugees in the Middle East 1.5 Million in Gaza Israel continues to act like war criminals in their treatment of them.

Hamas and Fatah are fighting because they can't agree about how to fight their oppressors what would you be like after 40 yrs of murder and mayhem by the Israeli thugs ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

c4 - Hamas and Fatah don't hate Jews they hate Israel, with good reason, it wasn't me who described their recent election as democratic it was international observers.

You need to elaborate on your last paragraph.

Jackart said...

My last comment a bit close to the Knuckle, eh Tel, you chubby anti-semite you?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Jackart - Gaza has been a stinking festering prison for 40 yrs because of Israel - their people are in despair trouble breaks out occasionally it's not new, some people lose their patience and want to take over the struggle wouldn't you ?

The 'elders of Zion' rubbish is typical of you and other supporters of Israel who don't know how to defend what Israel has done and continues to do with America's support, they are war criminals.
Your tired and discredited argument lumps an awful lot of people together including many Jews and Jewish sympathisers, are Jewish people who agree with me also Nazis and Jew haters ? Anyone who disagrees with Israel is anti semitic even Jews ?

I have no problem with Jews who are 'assertive, religious, able to defend themselves' who have temporal or political power' but, 'a homeland' - Israel, is of course the homeland you refer to. The problem is it's not theirs, they took it by force from a peaceful people who had lived there for 2,000 I know many Jews who can hardly bare the shame of what is going on in their name.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Jackart - have you any other argument against me ?

Blogs are a haven for cowards like you eh ?

Jan Tregeagle said...

Ok Terry, just a few pointers.

1. Why are there still Palestinian refugee camps in nearby lands too? For example the ones recently fought in in Lebanon? The answer- the UN and the Arabs keep them there. Palestinians have had 40 years to settle in other countries. Instead they are seperated and forced to live in camps by the very people you think would help them most.

2. Hamas and Fatah fighting over how to stop the nasty Israelis. Why aren't they more interested in bigger questions like water, hospitals, electricity etc? Wouldn't you agree those are more important? Or are you a fake socialist who cares more for ideas than people? Indeed why do they need to fight? And aid money in Hamas officals hands keep going missing? Might it be corruption? Can't they be democratic and debate rather than shoot? Isn't resorting to violence rather, well, thuggish?

3. Might the reason for the wall be the possibility of Palestinian suicide bombers? Indeed haven't the number of bombers gone down rather strongly since the wall was built? (Not that the Israeli's still aren't being bastards but I hope you can see that both sides are in the wrong).

4. Why are all the oil rich Arab countries giving sweet F.A. to the poor little Palestinians? Whilst the nasty West gives rather a lot? Shouldn't you condemn them too?

5. You do realise the 6 Day War was fought because Israel was about to be invaded, no? It was a pre-emptive strike.

6. The Palestinians are not all that lovely either. Suicide bombs, human shields etc.

Now I'm not all that pro-Israeli (and I at least know that things are not black and white) but surely Terry old chap you realise that the Palestinians and local Arabs have rather a lot to answer for two. Its a multi toned conflict.

Rumbold said...

Hamas and Fatah are fighting because Fatah, despite losing the election, do not want to let go of the patronage machine that is the PA. Israel, America et al are backing Fatah, quite disgracefully, when they really should be trying to work with Hamas, who, despite their charter, are more likely to be able to negotiate a deal with Israel in de facto terms.

Israel does not have troops in Gaza- that is what I meant.

RightForScotland said...

Quote of the year:

"Hamas and Fatah are fighting because they can't agree about how to fight their oppressors"

Great. So even when they are killing each other in mindless violence it is because they cannot agree how to fight the jooooos?

Maybe you could go and advise them, then they could stop raiding each others radio stations!!!

Jim Lewis said...

Interesting.

"The time(16) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and

kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0

Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will

not apply to the Gharqad(17), which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and

Muslim)(18)."

""Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it

as it had eliminated its predecessors."

The Imam and Martyr Hassan al-Banna(5)

May Allah Pity his Soul"

Taken from the charter of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)

They don't hate Jews eh?

By the way C4 I wouldn't bother engaging Terry in dialogue about democracy, or any other serious issue for that matter. Remember this is the guy who, when he's had it pointed out that Cuba doesn't actually have elections, only rubber stamping of Party selected represenataives, declares "Well, I think they're more democratic than America."

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

1/ 1/ They want there own land which the Zionist thugs took from them.
2/ The most important thing is to take back what is theirs, Palestine.
3/ The wall is an apartheid wall it is a war crime.
4/ Other Arab states have given plenty even to the extent of accepting millions of refugees escaping from Israeli oppression.
5/ Yes I've heard that for years but the truth is that Israel wanted the war, why haven't they given back the occupied territories ? Maybe they never intended to, that's what the war was about.
6/ How much pain must you be in ? How much despair ? How badly must you be treated ? How evil must your oppressor be to to turn you into a suicide bomber ?
I know that if the state of Israel had never been created and the Palestinians had never been robbed of their land the Middle East would not be the way it is today.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - The violence is not mindless, these are desperate people suffering one of history's great war crimes, you typically try to trivialise it, I think it's an age thing, or maybe not.

Jackart said...

Why do pinkos bang on about Israel when there are far, far worse examples of oppression, genocide and mass murder (North Korea, for example. Darfur for another) in the world?

Oh yes. The others are all caused by socialist Governments.

No enemies on the left, eh Tel?

RightForScotland said...

"suffering one of history's great war crimes"

What war crime would that be? They are killing each other because, by your opinion, they disagree over the best way to kill the jooooooo!!!!

It could be an age thing. It could also be that I am not a mindless drone and I have arrived at my opinions by consuming many different media sources, left and right, and coming to my own conclusions. Look up "Pallywood" on google to see how "oppressed" they are these days.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Jim - If you go in to the Bible you will find all kinds of blood curdling threats and prophecies but most people take them with a pinch of salt nowadays, perhaps not you though, all religions have versions of this hokum it puts bums on seats.

They don't hate Jews, Jews lived in harmony with arabs for thousands of years before Israel was foisted on them, there was a famous Palestinian Jewish family 'Jesus, Mary and Joseph' you might have heard of them.

Let me say again for the benefit of you and C4 and the other American apologists. Cuba does have elections and, it's a more democratic country than the USA.

Maybe that's why the world's greatest super power is so afraid of Cuba, what do you think ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

jackart - another apologist for the Israeli regime, they are commiting war crimes and practicing apartheid.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - You're a real big hit for yourself aren't you. Unlike the rest of us you are not a mindless drone, you arrived at your opinions, came to your own conclusions etc.

Do you wear your underpants outside your trousers ? What is it they say about self praise again ?

Jim Lewis said...

FFS how can one have an election when there is no choice? You truly plumb the depths of insanity with this claim.

Election: a vote to select the winner of a position or political office; "the results of the election will be announced tonight"

Cuba has no choice in elections, only the choice to turn up or not. If you don't turn up, how hard is it for the government to know about it?

Terry your argument is insupportible. Please please please tell me how an election can happen without a choice of candidate?

And Terry, you can't hide this time. The quotation shown was taken directly from the Jamas charter. It refers specifically and directly to the destruction of Jews. This is not the case with Fatah. They categorically state that their war is gaisnt Zionism, not Jews.

Lastly, you cretin, quit throwing your cliches at me. You're too bloody stupud to see that calling me an American apologist is the kind of stuff which marginalises you, and by implication, anyone who ploughs a similar path. What you in your Little Red Book socialism can't see is that there are those of us who really do detest Bush and Blair's politics. We do detest the subjugation of entire peoples. We do detest what capitalism has meant for the poorest in society. The difference between us is this: I won't lie, make up statistics, and just plain bluster to make a point. You palpalby wil and it's been demonstrated time and again. I don't expect a reasoned argument, so don't even bother trying, until you're prepared to actually engage in debate, using evidence and most importantly, independent thought.

Jan Tregeagle said...

"1/ They want there own land which the Zionist thugs took from them."

So rather than live in the land they have (Gaza) or chose to live in the countries like Lebanon or Syria like normal people, waiting for their land they instead choose to live in lousy refugee camps. Yup, that makes total sense...

Using the word Zionist makes you look foolish by the way. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion are false you know and very few of the government happen to be out and out Zionists. Nor is the majority of the population Zionist. Its like me calling every Palestinian an Islamist- it just isn't true.

"2/ The most important thing is to take back what is theirs, Palestine."

Ah, so they should take back land nationalisticly rather than feed, clothe or help their people. I can see why you make such a great socialist. The workers come first..unless there is a bit of nationalism at hand.

"3/ The wall is an apartheid wall it is a war crime."

Thats not reasoning Tel nor does it addres my points. So I'll ask you again: why is the wall there? Is it perhaps to keep suicide bombers and terrorists out?

"4/ Other Arab states have given plenty even to the extent of accepting millions of refugees escaping from Israeli oppression."

And by accepting refugees you mean keeping them in refugee camps rather than integrating with society. What is this plenty you speak of. Any facts and figures?

"5/ Yes I've heard that for years but the truth is that Israel wanted the war, why haven't they given back the occupied territories ? Maybe they never intended to, that's what the war was about."

Ah, why haven't they given back the territories. Well for one the Golan Heights cannot be given back because the states that surround Israel are committed to her destruction and it provides an excellent artillery position (as it did in the 6 Days War). Gaza and Palestine I cannot defend.

However again you prove ignorance by saying the war was about land grabbing. You rather miss the important factor that the surroundign states geared up for war first and that they were and still are committed to the destruction of Israel.

"6/ How much pain must you be in ? How much despair ? How badly must you be treated ? How evil must your oppressor be to to turn you into a suicide bomber ?
I know that if the state of Israel had never been created and the Palestinians had never been robbed of their land the Middle East would not be the way it is today."

You do realise the Jews were robbed of Judea righs? And that Palestine was actually under Ottoman and British rule right? So in fact the Palestinians had not really had their own country. You also realise that the UN divided Palestine in Jewish and Arab states so both could have some of the land both claimed from historical precedent. And that it was the Arabs who refused this and invaded on the first day of the Jewish state.

RightForScotland said...

"What is it they say about self praise again ? "

Don't know that one.

So I will ask the question again: What war crime?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Jim _ I don't regard our democracy as robust at all I think Cuba's is far better, not similar to ours but that does not make it worse.

If Hamas are only concerned with destroying Jews why are they only operating in Palestine, this is rhetoric being spouted by desperate people who have every right to call for revenge, how were Jews and Arabs able to live together before the creation of Israel ?

I'm happy to let others judge your last paragraph, I don't feel the need to comment.

C4' said...

it wasn't me who described their recent election as democratic it was international observers.

What international observers? Were they from North Korea, China or Cuba?

I bet you'd love it if your local Labour party had a paramillitary wing like Fatah and Hamas do.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

1/ I don't think we can get far with this, you suggest that they accept Gaza and the other 5+ million settle elsewhere, you said that they 'choose' to live in refugee camps ! If using the word Zionist is foolish then there must an awful lot of foolish people around.
2/ Palestinians are being killed and made homeless by Israel and you suggest they should concentrate on food and clothing ?
3/ Lot's of people regard Israel's treatment of the Palestinians as worse than South Africa under apartheid, including Jimmy Carter who like me is now labelled a 'Jew hater'
4/ You suggest that Israel can create millions of refugees and surrounding countries should accept them on a permanent basis, is there logic in there somewhere ?
5/ Syria and Israel are negotiating the return of the Golan Heights again. History is written by the winners isn't it, Israel provoked it's Arab neighbours to cause a conflict that they wanted, they knew what would happen and they were ready for it.
6/ Let's get real here the Palestinians had been living here under Ottoman and British Mandates for 2,000 yrs. did you know that the Balfour declaration said that the indigenous Arabs would not be disadvantaged. When the Jewish state was created the terror and fear began and the Arabs were driven out that's why we have the present situation.
I've never discussed the Middle East with anyone so apparently naive.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - 'war crimes' I've answered that but, here's a thought, I reckon that what I regard as a war crime by Israel would not meet with your agreement. Just a thought.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

C4 - well, I don't have the details to hand and, I'm not going looking for them but I'm satisfied that the elections were observed and declared fair.

Maybe you should take the line that the other right wing commentators take ' if Terry doesn't put in sources for everything he says then we will accuse him of making it up' that should keep you happy, happy and ignorant but, you can't have everything can you.

The Labour Party's 'paramilitary wing' can we have big tanks and bulldozers and fighter planes as well just like those Israeli's they just love a fair fight don't they.

RightForScotland said...

You have not covered it. And that is why I am asking the question. Our opinions will differ and it will reflect badly on you.

The fact you don't have the balls to post your opinion shows that deep down you feel that way as well.

Rumbold said...

"the Palestinians had been living here under Ottoman and British Mandates for 2,000 yrs."

A minor historical point Councillor: The Ottomans only conquered Palestine in 1516. In fact, the Ottomans only really emerged in the 14th century.

Jan Tregeagle said...

"1/ I don't think we can get far with this, you suggest that they accept Gaza and the other 5+ million settle elsewhere, you said that they 'choose' to live in refugee camps ! If using the word Zionist is foolish then there must an awful lot of foolish people around."

Dear Tel the use of "choose" was sarcastic. To explain I was saying: where would you rather live- what remains of your 'homeland' and local friendly countries or in refugee camps? I thinkwe can agree they'd rather not be in 'fugee camps. So why are they when they have bits of homeland and friendly countries? You yourself intimated they'd rather not live in the camps. So why?

Incidentally there are indeed many foolish people and 90% of those using the phrase "Zionist" are indeed fools.

"2/ Palestinians are being killed and made homeless by Israel and you suggest they should concentrate on food and clothing ?"

Yes I do. Actually looking at the news Palestinians are being killed by Palestinians. Note the difference between the number killed by Israel and the total population. Many more are affected by bad conditions than getting killed/losing relatives. And surely you advocate butter over guns? Or are you saying that spending money on violence rather than helping others is acceptable? In which case I expect you to give up your house, comforts and live in a tent, donating all your money to the MoD for soldiers being killed in Iraq.

After all in the end there is little danger of Israel wiping out Palestine whearas health problems are rampant.

"3/ Lot's of people regard Israel's treatment of the Palestinians as worse than South Africa under apartheid, including Jimmy Carter who like me is now labelled a 'Jew hater'"

You're still not addressing my point, just spinning rhetoric.

"4/ You suggest that Israel can create millions of refugees and surrounding countries should accept them on a permanent basis, is there logic in there somewhere ?"

Well as they have nowhere else to go and as they support the Palestinian people then yes, I do. Applying those same guidelines should Britain now close herself to immigration and stop accepting people on a permanent basis?

"5/ Syria and Israel are negotiating the return of the Golan Heights again. History is written by the winners isn't it, Israel provoked it's Arab neighbours to cause a conflict that they wanted, they knew what would happen and they were ready for it."

And how indeed did they provoke the Arabs to gear up for war so Israel could launch an assault?

"6/ Let's get real here the Palestinians had been living here under Ottoman and British Mandates for 2,000 yrs. did you know that the Balfour declaration said that the indigenous Arabs would not be disadvantaged. When the Jewish state was created the terror and fear began and the Arabs were driven out that's why we have the present situation.
I've never discussed the Middle East with anyone so apparently naive."

Ah Tel, I never knew you were such an expert! Except you're wrong. For starters if you go back 2,000 years then Palestine was, umm, Judea- controlled by Jews and under the power of the Roman Empire. A bit of a stretch to the Ottoman and British Empires, no? with maths like that I hope you have a calculator. And indeed the fact the Palestinians and Jews have been under other peoples rule for 2,000 years rather kicks your arguement about an independant homeland in the cojones doesn't it?

Of course I've heard of the Balfour Declaration. Shall I quote its line on not being nasty to others: "it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". Of course it also said: The British Government"view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people"...". In other words they envisaged a national Jewish State that was nice to the non-Jews. And indeed today one can see non-Jew in, oh, the Knesset. Sadly I don't see a Jew in site withing the Hamas or Fatah organisations...

Don't you think by the way that its a bit silly to use a document to back up your arguement that also says that other parts of your arguement, such as the existance of Israel, is wrong. The Balfour declaration supports Israel.

And then of course there is the "terror" that drove the Arabs out. You must mean the massive amount of terror they caused on 14th May 1948 which was the day Israel came into existence and the Arab armies attacked.

"The Labour Party's 'paramilitary wing' can we have big tanks and bulldozers and fighter planes as well just like those Israeli's they just love a fair fight don't they."

Ah yes, because the Israelis should really give up all their kit just to make it 'fair'. And you call me naive.

Anonymous said...

"Jim _ I don't regard our democracy as robust at all I think Cuba's is far better, not similar to ours but that does not make it worse."

Terry, this is very frustrating. I never mentioned our democracy, which I consider shaky at best. However, since democracy requires elections, and since elections require choice, how are you able to describe Cuba as democratic? You just refuse to address this question.

"If Hamas are only concerned with destroying Jews why are they only operating in Palestine, this is rhetoric being spouted by desperate people who have every right to call for revenge, how were Jews and Arabs able to live together before the creation of Israel ?"

Well, you can argue that one all you like. I'll take the word of Hamas. THey don't claim, as you misquote, that they are simply copncerned with the destruction of Jews, but they do state categorically, in their charter that this is one of their aims. Up to you whether you call them liars.

"I'm happy to let others judge your last paragraph, I don't feel the need to comment."

Same here.

C4' said...

those Israeli's they just love a fair fight don't they.

I suppose you think that Palastinian suicide bombers killing Israeli children is fair and proper then?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

C4 - No

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Anon - I'm confused here, are you just daft Jim or someone else ? - I have addressed the question of Cuban Democracy the numbers involved in the political process in Cuba put Britain and the USA to shame.

You clearly have your view of Hamas and I have mine and I'm not a supporter, think of it as being 'up to our knees in Fenian blood' it's rhetoric.

How were they able to live together for thousands of years until the creation of Israel, if it's just a Jew thing ? You missed that, are you avoiding the question ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Jan - your interpretation of refugees and where and why they live is just about the daftest I've ever heard.
2/ see above
3/ no I'm not your rhetoric is obvious and risible.
4/ they do have somewhere to go, Palestine.
5. By stealing more and more Arab land and creating more and more refugees.
6/ Palestine has been there for approx 2,000 yrs. is that better ? Jews and Arabs have lived together there for approx 1,940 yrs. OK ? Have you ever heard of the Jewish terrorist organisations which operated at that time, have you ever heard of the King David Hotel atrocity.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

rumbold - thank you for that.

Romans, Ottomans, Bitish,Israel.

Palestine has been there for approx 2,000 yrs and Arabs and Jews as well as others lived there together until 60 yrs ago, and now we are here.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

RFS - I have covered it.

The idea that having a different opinion on anything with you would 'reflect badly on me' makes me wonder about you again.

Jim Lewis said...

"Anon - I'm confused here, are you just daft Jim or someone else ? - I have addressed the question of Cuban Democracy the numbers involved in the political process in Cuba put Britain and the USA to shame.


You haven't addressed it at all, you've refused to do so. You are seemingly unable to tell me how 90% (government figures) turning up and not having a choice of candidate is either an election nor democratic in any way, shaoe or form. It's just a wee trip to the town hall in order to avoid becoming another political prisoner. I've asked this at least 6 or 7 times now and you've just fired teh same rhetoric back ay me every time. Piss or get off the pot.

You clearly have your view of Hamas and I have mine and I'm not a supporter, think of it as being 'up to our knees in Fenian blood' it's rhetoric.

Huh? Either their stated aim is the destruction of Jews or it isn't. It is. Even when they themselves tell you that, you won't accept it. Hamas wants to create an Islamic state in the region, that is, a non-democratic state ruled by religious leaders, with no elections, not even the Cuban joke kind. As for the Fenian blood reference, that's just as vile.


How were they able to live together for thousands of years until the creation of Israel, if it's just a Jew thing ? You missed that, are you avoiding the question ? "


Just a Jew thing? Not sure wwhere you got that from but it wasn't me. The truth is, they weren't always able to live together.. There was constant conflict. Read your history. Read up on Hebron and other attacks.

Reactionary Snob said...

Ok - Terry.

Can you tell me once, just once, why this issue dominates your thoughts but you don't seem to give a flying one about the people of Western Sahara?

The exact same thing is happening to the Western Saharans - the Moroccans have stole their land, turned them into refugees in their own land and built a fence around them.

Why do lefties care so much about the Palestinian cause but don't seem to care about the people of Western Sahara?

RS

Jan Tregeagle said...

1+2:Tel, its good to know that my idea that refugees might weant to live somewhere other than a nasty, enclosed camp for 60 years when they have a variety of nice countries to settle in is daft. After all if I was a refugee I'd want to stay in a nasty camp. Absolutely.

3:Sorry, what? My rhetoric? What has that to do with the wall?

4: Ah the lovely Palestine. Slight problem there is that whilst Palestine exists it is currently something of a warzone. And of course if you mean Palestine in the sense of the single state of pre-1948 then I have sorry news for you. The UN divided it in 1948, it hasn't existed since. Which makes it rather difficult to live there.

5: By stealing Arab land. And which land was this? If you mean the Arba part of the UN partition plan then I have sad news for you Tel. That was taken after the Arabs invaded in 1948 in an attempt to take those nasty, nasty Joos land. You know, the land given to them by the UN? And surely if that was the case they'd have invaded in the late 40's or 50's or...I'm talking about the specific incidents at the time.

6: And by 1940 years you mean Palestine under occupation of various powers right? Which to be fair is what Palestine is under right now- occupation. So whats changed? A Palestine that was, umm, actually Judea. So in fact Judea has existed for 1940 years under occupation.

Incidentally I have heard of the Jewish terrorists and I am no fan of them myself. However they do not relate to the question. You're just throwing in some negative vibes where they aren't required. Have you also heard of the Palestinian terror organisations? And the Arab ones? And the...

Incidentally Arabs and Jews do live together in Israel. Thats why there are, umm, Arabs in the Knesset. And in fact is why there is a term like Israeli-Arab. Do you know though, there is one area where Jews and Aras don't live together. And that area is Gaza which is, oh deary me Tel, all Arab.

On the plus side at least you answered these questions.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Jim - I regard Cuba as more democratic for reasons that I have explained if you choose to regard the USA and Britain as more democratic then good for you, I prefer the Cuban turn out, and the involvement of all the people.

Your attitude to Hamas is nonsense, you either don't have a clue or you're just lying. Tell me what you think of Israel and America refusing to accept Hamas after a fair election victory, that's your democracy isn't it ?

Jews an Arabs have lived together in Palestine for approx. 2,000 yrs. Something terrible must have happened to cause this don't you think ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Jan - 1+2 Honestly, this is too stupid for words.
3/ ?
4/ Perhaps that's why they are fighting.
5/ Israel has been stealing Arab Palestinian land since it's creation and continues to do so.
6/ The Romans, Ottomans, British did not create a separate state and expel indigenous people Israel did, there's a difference.

Why do you think the Palestinians have been fighting Israel for 60 Yrs. ?

Jim Lewis said...

"Jim - I regard Cuba as more democratic for reasons that I have explained if you choose to regard the USA and Britain as more democratic then good for you, I prefer the Cuban turn out, and the involvement of all the people."

Yes you do, Tery, but your argument is fallacious. You state that Cuba had a turnout of 90% at elections. Since they palpably did not have elections, there couldn't be a any turnout at elections. Got it? Of course you do, but you'll stick to your guns anyhow.

Your attitude to Hamas is nonsense, you either don't have a clue or you're just lying. Tell me what you think of Israel and America refusing to accept Hamas after a fair election victory, that's your democracy isn't it ?

Lyimng about what? Hamas' stated aims? Not me.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."


"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

Nice to see they're willing to reason with people. What this means, Terry, is that nobody will at any time be able to bring Hamas to the negotiating table. They want all or nothing and will not stop killing until they get it. To them, every Israeli is a Zionist, and will have to die.

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

The Slogan of the Islamic Resistance Movement.


Jews an Arabs have lived together in Palestine for approx. 2,000 yrs. Something terrible must have happened to cause this don't you think ?

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm

Terry, either you take the word of Hamas or you don't. You're the lair here, not me. I can substantiate everything I've said. in fact, I just did. Can you?

As to the USA and Isreal refusing to accept the electiosn, it reall doesn't matter since it's none of their business. Let's not get carried away though. I have a feeling that you are under the impression that Hamas won the election to run Gaza. You do know it was only local elections, right?

Jan Tregeagle said...

1+2: It is called satire Tel. I'm saying that your idea that people would want tomlive ina refugee camp for 60 years is nonsense (hey why don't we look at Cuba- the Cuban exiles certainly don't seem to be living in refugee camps).

3: Check what your response to my question 3 was last time. I was asking you whaton earth you were talkiing about. Apparently you don't know either.

4: Ah, so Palestine is fighting because the UN divided it...Are you saying that you oppose the UN's descisions then? Or just that descision? What is your solution? As the UN's word must stand.

5: So they are stealing the Arab land. But you can't say what land. Or where it is. Or why. Care to illuminate us by telling us what Arab land, where, when and why?

6: No, we all kept it as Judea/Palestine. But the UN was the one that divided Palestine, not Israel. As well you should know. As for expelling indigenous people, well the Arabs also tried that in 1948 (because a fair old wack of the Jews had lived there for a long time). Not to mention that expelling people was hardly new- you've heard of the Bible right? You might want to ask why they were kicked out (which not all of them were). Might it be to do with their attempts to wipe out the UN-created Jewish state, despite that going against international law?

The Palestinians have been fighting to take back what they consider as their land and to kick out the Jews. That doesn't make it a valid cause though. Hitler also wantedto take land and kill the Jews but that hardly aquits him (getting close to Godwin's Law...).

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Jan - please shorten these you're trying my patience.
1+2 I'm struggling to understand you, is English your first language ?
3/ ?
4/ Did you just say the UN's word must stand ? Was that more satire ? Does Israel agree with you do you think ?
5/ I find this a stupid question, start with the West Bank.
6/ My favourite part of the bible is parting the Red Sea or maybe the conjuring tricks like water into wine or walking on water or Manna from heaven or --- come on Jan.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Jim - Hamas's stated aim is the destruction of Israel you have chosen to take the blood curdling fighting rhetoric literally because it suits your argument, you just sound silly, the newspapers today are carrying stories about Hamas already calling for talks with Fatah, that's not very blood curdling is it ?

I don't agree that you have substantiated everything you say, you have quoted empty rhetoric because it suits your dishonest argument. If I said to you that I can substantiate that Moses parted the Red Sea because I read it in the Bible would you buy that ? There are others of course.

Jan Tregeagle said...

Tel- I'd shorten them but they need to be of a length to make them readable. Its just that I do my debate in one post rather than three or so like you.

1+2: thanks for insulting me again. English is my first language. I was born in Hackney. Let me spell out the question: Why. Would. People. Want. To. Live. In. A. Camp. For. 60. Years?

3: God you are lazy. I asked you why you were talking about Jimmy Carter and not answering me about why the wall is there. Why is the wall there?

4: I do think the UN's word should stand. Otherwise it has no authority.

5: Thank you for finally answering. You do realise the West Bank was Palestinian land that was, umm, occupied by Jordan. Right?

6: I'm not a Christian but you realise the Bible includes history?

Jim Lewis said...

Jim - Hamas's stated aim is the destruction of Israel you have chosen to take the blood curdling fighting rhetoric literally because it suits your argument, you just sound silly, the newspapers today are carrying stories about Hamas already calling for talks with Fatah, that's not very blood curdling is it ?

I don't agree that you have substantiated everything you say, you have quoted empty rhetoric because it suits your dishonest argument. If I said to you that I can substantiate that Moses parted the Red Sea because I read it in the Bible would you buy that ? There are others of course.


You didn't read the charter I provided for you then? I suspected as much. I didn't stae Hamas' aims, they did. YOu're calling them liars, not me. Fatah are secular, Hamas are not. Thye are quite clear in their aims. As to your nonsensical analogy, the Bible was written thusands of years ago by who knows who? Hamas is only a few short years old, and wrote its charter quite knowingly. Hamas is now in control militarily and of course it will make noises about talking to Fatah, because it knows what you apparently don't. It wasn't elected, as you keep saying, at least not to control the Palestinian Authority.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Jan - 1+2 please accept my apologies it wasn't an insult. "Why would people want to live in a camp for 60 yrs" that's an interesting question Jan, I don't think they do.
3/ I think Israel is as bad as apartheid South Africa and Carter agrees, the wall is there to steal more land and to further destroy the morale of the Palestinians, calling it security is a lie.
4/ I missed the bit where you called on Israel to end the occupation of Palestinian land as instructed by the U.N.
5/ Devious or what lies of omission eh ? squalid. I know that the West Bank is occupied by Israel right now against U.N. Resolutions.
6/ 'Bible history' yes and I love the bit about the loaves and fishes that was a good trick eh ? How about Cain killing Abel because he wouldn't join the apple pickers union. I'm getting a picture here, are you for Darwin or Intelligent design ?

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Jim - We've been over this, you are lying to yourself as well, Hamas will negotiate and compromise, remember the world's most intractable conflict ? Remember the Rev. Paisley NEVORRRR ! - NEVORRRR ! - NEVORRRR !

That's the real world Jim, you're a fool who can't accept reality.

Jim Lewis said...

Like I said, you seem to know Hamas' inentions better than they do. You're a sage and no mistake, guv'nor.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Jim - I deleted your last post because of your language. You need to learn some self control.

Hamas? You continue to look foolish, try this colourful analogy, in the fifties in America there was a larger than life heavyweight boxer called 'Two Ton Tony Gallento' he trained on 'beer and cigars'

He had a catch phrase, when asked about his coming opponent he would growl "I'll moider da bum" he didn't 'moider' anyone of course, it was rhetoric Jim !

Jan Tregeagle said...

1+2: Thank you Tel. It is indeed an interesting question with my belief being that they don't. I'd imagine msot people aren't that dedicated to taking back what they percieve as their country- witness all the lads who fled Iraq.
3: But wouldn't you agree that bombings have gone down with the wall there?
4: So you support the UN in calling for Israel to give back Palestinian land. Do you therefore also accept the rights for a Jewish state as was created, by the UN, in 1948? (Incidentally I do think the Israelis should at the least let Gaza and the West Bank be, changing the checkpoints to heavily armed borders).
5: OK.
6: I did say I wasn't a Christian (I'm an atheist who thinks Creationism is folly). However the Bible does contain history (Jesus for instance existed and to take one section I've been studying as part of my interests in ancient Persia but the book of Isiah is accurate in [non-supernatural] events when it comes to the fall of Babylon). Thats not to say all of its history is accurate

Anonymous said...

Always good to read the words of a tool of the palestinian terrorists.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Jan - 1+2 - you are so wrong, a person's country is one of the things which people will make great sacrifice for.
3/ I believe bombings have gone down but that's not why it was built.
4/ a/ yes b/ no
6/ You seem very sure about this I'm sceptical

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

anon - you are certainly no tool but fool ?

Jan Tregeagle said...

1+2: True- you esposing nationalism now too! However I question why they'd stay in camps when there is no real reason. I mean sure it makes great photo ops but surely they can make sacrifices outside the camps as easily as within. Indeed surely they can do more good outside where they might earn more money etc?
3: So the only reason it was built was for apartheid. So why have they built it now when they could have done so nearly 40 years ago?
4: So in effect you don't care what the UN says? As you're only willing to accept its mandate on issues where it agrees with you.
6: I'm backed up by the Cyrus Cylinder and the Nabonidus chronicle. Similarly even you can't argue against the existance of Jesus. He's documented by a variety of contemporary sources. The Bible does contain some historical truths in amongst the mumbo jumbo.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Jan - I'm not carrying on with 1+2 it's the stupidest analysis I've come across yet.

3/ It's simply their latest way of destroying Palestinian morale they estimate that they can get away with it at this time, because of years of weakening the Palestinians.
4/ I believe the UN 's handing Palestinian land to the Jews was an act of treachery, I believe that the UN were wrong. I merely pointed out that it was in fact you who asked for the UN's decisions to be respected, which is rather silly.
5/ Highly subjective - are you trying to kid me or yourself.

Jim Lewis said...

"Highly subjective - are you trying to kid me or yourself. "

You're kidding, right. The one man who can't, or won't produce any evidence to back up any of his wild claims, accuses someone else of subjectivism? Wow. you reall do have cojones.

Jan Tregeagle said...

1+2: I see nothing silly in the supposition that people, even if they want to make a point, generally don't try and stay in refugee camps.
3: Ah so not Apartheid, its to weaken the Palestinian morale. If they are so worried about morale why don't they refuse all Palestinians entry to Israel (they can get workers elsewhere) and start bombing the place regularly?
4: So you pointed out that I asked for the UN's descision to be kept when you said:

"4/ a/ yes b/ no"

Hmmm...At least you have in a roundabout way answered my question. You do only believe in the UN when it fits your views.
5: No, not subjective at all. Nabonidus Chronicle, Cyrus Cylinder and assorted Roman admin documents are not fake. And all back up certain elements from the Bible (of course other elements like the 40 years in the desert and Moses have no proof other than the Bible). History is not subjective except in historical opinion. As far as hard fact goes the Bible has corroboration from reliable sources.

Cllr Terry Kelly said...

Jan - I've decided to carry on publishing your comments but with one or two exceptions I won't be answering you back - I never do this but, I'm sorry you're not up to this, I'm surprised none of the others who attack me haven't commented on you.